Fight The Power! Or the Bouncer… whichever.
Fighting a bouncer is never a good idea. The fact is that in most cases, bouncers, same as security guards, have some sort of state license, have been working with the cops in training or certification processes, and most of them, after all, are good guys. The thing is, if you fight them, there’s almost zero chance you will ever win, whether the cops show up or not, and no matter who called them there.
In many cases, police will side with the bouncers, no matter what story the “victim” tells, since the bouncers are sober, licensed and trained, and presumably have some experience in the field. Often, the bouncers will have worked with the cops before, they know or know of each other, and that puts even more doubt into the minds of police when it comes to the stories of bystanders of people that actually have been “bounced”.
So what should you do if you find yourself in trouble with the bouncers? The sensible thing is to just play dead. Well, not really. But to paraphrase “Fuck Ass” from the Boondock Saints; Make like a tree, and get the fuck out of there. Comply, comply, comply. Do what they say, play nice and let them grab your arm or whatever they feel like doing in order to escort you off the premises and out of their minds, and you’re fine. If you struggle, wiggle, scream, cry, mouth off, spit, threaten or behave like a common thug, you’re in a world of trouble before you even realize you had bought a ticket there. Also, that world includes pain, more often than not.
There are some examples of bouncers doing something wrong, and getting convicted for it too, in some instances. These are few and far between, however, compared to the amount of situations that a bouncer faces and handles every day, and the amount of times the cops take complaints and the amount of times bouncers are reported to the police.
[ad name=”pages-ad”]
At the end of the day, if a bouncer thinks you’ve done something to qualify you for “bouncing” from wherever you’re trying to quench your thirst, you’re bound to be out of there, one way or the other. Complaints and such should always be saved for the next day – who knows, you may have gotten a bit of a different perspective on things by then, too. And please remember – bouncers are mostly good guys. And girls.
About Author
“If you struggle, wiggle, scream, cry, mouth off, spit, threaten or behave like a common thug, you’re in a world of trouble before you even realize you had bought a ticket there. Also, that world includes pain, more often than not.” = With arguments like these you are implying that bouncers have the right to use force and inflict pain on people being bounced. Idiot
Nope – I’m just saying that it’s going to happen. Being calm when you are being restrained prevents pain. Doing all the things I listed will make being escorted out painful – not because of what they are doing, but because of what you are doing.
Wait… actually, I am not implying – I am saying straight out that they have the right to use force to get you out if you don’t want to. Exactly the same right that you have if you want to get someone out of your living room, for example, or off your property. Better read up on the laws, Tom.
Am I safe in assuming that struggling, wiggling, screaming, crying, spitting, threatening and behaving like a common thug is your standard response to being asked to leave / being escorted out? I think the question of who is the idiot here is debatable…
bouncer-man this time you’re dealing with the Man, embetsfolka, the doctors, the lawyers, the judges, and they’ll throw the book at you. If you’re not careful they’ll even section you and send you to places and treatments you wished bouncing was a child’s ball-game.
I can tell you that if a bouncer touches me or even just grabb my arm so i get bruises and such i don’t tolerate that he can ask me polite and i will walk if thats the issue. Touch me or being rude or yell to me i can tell you that then me and my friends finds that F***ing bouncer after the club closes, and bash his skull in with a bat or something. A brute steroid monkey have no business physicaly attacking me in anyway. And i will punish him if possible. Have done this around the world and i hope the steroid infested f****ers learned their lesson. If they really want to do whatever they want with people they should have become cops, but i guess the lot of them haven’t got the brains for that.. I hate bouncers
Tough guy, huh?
Well, good luck with that.
bouncers are all overpaid pricks on a power trip. i got kicked out of a club tonight whilst having not drunk a drop standing watching the music being played, i got told “ive been watching you for 10 minutes and youve been falling over the place” i got hit in the face by them and sarcastically laughed at as i made my way home angry and bloodied. Being quite a placid person usually, i was driven by the bouncer thugs to having thoughts about violence and revenge. This is not the first time i have had bad experiences with bouncers. The same thing happened a couple of years back. I was watching music with a drink, like everyone else, and told you have to leave, come to the door. I ended up getting angry because i had paid money to get in, and was being escorted out, having done nothing wrong. So i called the bouncer a cunt. Which i think anyone would do or at least think in this situation. Having effectively been robbed . A few bouncers took me round the corner of the club and held me by the throat up against the wall and all took it in turns to punch me until i was left, in an alleyway on a freezing cold night in november, then one of them came out of the side door of the club, laughing with the beer slop from behind the bar, and poured it over me until i was soaked to my boxers. I felt like commiting suicide. I was literally going to kill myself. not being able to contact my friend inside the club in a strange town, which i had come to for a good time. Police should not support these people, if they want any kind of respect from the public. My girlfriend has told me about being thrown down a staircase by bouncers, and we are not bad people. It really frustrates me, because, it makes me feel like that there is a hidden agenda for the butt kicking, and being someone who suffers from depression, does not help my view of the world i live in. England’s authorities are very brutal and unfair, as i am sure they are elsewhere, but having personal experience of what seems like beating up an easy target for fun. I feel grateful that i am strong enough to shake this off without slitting my throat, I feel thankful for my friends, but deeply concerned about the untold frustration of innocent people who get muscled for fun.
Buddy, read the post again, and the comments, and maybe you too will understand what it’s all about.
i see you didnt include my last post. too honest for you huh?
Sorry! It’s just taking longer than it should. We don’t normally censor anyone who’s actually human. Both your comments are posted, pbomb.
Rhythm is a Bouncer show the good and bad of the Bouncer code, see YouTube Clip at http://www.lawonthedoor.com
I find this all really interesting. I have never been a bouncer nor do I have any interest in keeping control of a mass heard of dueche bags (sorry if the spelling is off but you get the point). Im not saying that everyone in a bar is an ass but I can tell you that most assaults occur between the hours of 2am and 3am in the western world including assault with a weapon. I dont think as a group we can judge those that have to make decisions in split seconds that can be the difference between control over the situation and broken bottle burried in there back. I have been grabbed before by bouncer and I can gaurantee that i deserved it. I think the fair statement is that not all of any group is an asshole thats like saying all cops are dinks because you got busted. No one likes to be beaten but lets just be honest with ourselves shit happens and if you dont like it go somewhere else. The end
Interesting article. My first question is where you got your information that in most cases bouncers are licensed and trained. I’ve been clubbing for 20+ years, and from my experience, most are oversized meatheads with no training, especially with respect to handing tense situations without the use of force. I am a big guy, and unfairly targeted when having to much fun for these guys. A bouncer is not allowed to grab, touch, push, or manhandle every person they feel unruly. This is a big problem in Europe and is beginning to get attention in the u.s. check out 2 cases in Philly where bouncers almost severed a patrons arm, and 2 other are facing murder charges. You don’t give up your rights by having a drink inside a club. Roid-Rage is also being considered as an affect of the bouncers behavior. I would say in “most cases” bouncers are untrained, unregulated, and unlicensed. I would be very interested in how many cities across the u.s. mandate training or licensing for bouncers.
In more and more countries, and in more and more states, licensing of security personnel is mandatory – this goes for all kinds of security personnel, not just those who work for a security company. Europe has been far ahead of the US in this respect for a long time, and though the US is coming along, it’s probably going to stay that way for some time.
Licensing of bouncers is a murky area, that much is true. Strictly speaking, anyone can hire someone to protect their property, without that person having to be licensed, but serious, high quality clubs will alway have licensed bouncers, often in expectance of the law clamping down, or their bouncer getting in trouble. Also, this will in many cases give the establishment an insurance benefit, and provide some protection in law suits or other problems arising out of situations where either the bouncer or a patron has been injured.
“Roid-rage” is hyped far out of proportions, in most cases. In general, people don’t react that way to steroids – for the most part, only those with a preexisting disposition for aggression above normal levels will be prone to “roid-rage”, and steroids are in fact harmless in “natural” dosage (though most illegal users will exceed those limits). Remember that steroids are used in a very high number of medical treatments.
“Grabbing”, “touching” and “pushing” will be very much legal and in many cases necessary for a bouncer to do his or her job – there’s nothing at all illegal in removing an unwanted person from private property, and if the person resists, then pushing them out with the force deemed necessary is perfectly legal. Remember that in the US (and some other countries) you’re allowed to use lethal force against trespassers… It’s true that you don’t surrender all your rights just because you decide to go into a bar, but you have agreed to respect the property owner’s decisions and his or her rights will trump yours while you’re on that property.
Calling bouncers (or security guards) oversized meatheads probably say more about you than them, which also leads to some clue about why you might feel you’ve been treated with dsrespect. If you’ve been going to clubs where there are unlicensed bouncers, you might benefit from finding a couple of new places – ask if you don’t know or there’s no way to tell if the security personnel is licensed, and you’ll be told. That’s not to say that there aren’t bad apples around, or that such should be accepted, but then again – where are there no bad apples?
“The fact is that in most cases, bouncers, same as security guards, have some sort of state license, have been working with the cops in training or certification processes, and most of them, after all, are good guys. ” Again, could you please cite your source for this “fact” that “most” meaning more than 50% have state licenses or certification of training?
Also, just because they decide arbitrarily that you are all of a sudden trespassing, they absolutely cannot assault you to get you out. they can ask you to leave, and if you agree, they can touch you slightly to guide you out. There are common misconceptions that bouncers have authority to pick someone up and physically remove them from the premises for violating a club rule. Some believe that bouncers can use pressure points, pain compliance holds, joint-manipulation, full-nelsons, chokeholds, wrist locks, and arm-bars to manhandle their patrons. This is generally not true.
Simply stated bouncers cannot legally use force against a patron being escorted out unless they are taking someone into custody for a crime or in self-defense. When force is used it must be reasonable depending on the circumstances. Ordinarily, that means no tackling, no punching, no kicking, no choking, no head butts, no piling on top, no hog-ties, and no pain compliance holds unless necessary for self defense.
The authority of a bouncer, in most cases, is the same as any ordinary citizen. Bouncers have no special authority to physically eject a customer who merely becomes intoxicated or verbally obnoxious. As an employee of the nightclub, bouncers can only demand that the undesirable customer leave. If the customer refuses to leave your only legal recourse, in most cases, is to call the police.
You should probably take the time to read the other answer again (and perhaps the whole post, too) since it seems you’ve missed most of the point of the whole thing. Anyway.
Security guard licensing: Bureau of Labor Statistics (US
Canadian rules are even more specific; “If you are a security guard, private investigator, bodyguard, bouncer or loss prevention personnel, you must now apply for a licence from this ministry.” Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services
In the UK, it’s very strict; “Unless your employer or company has been given an exemption under Section 4(4) of the Private Security Industry Act 2001, it is a criminal offence to undertake the licensable activities of a door supervisor without an SIA licence.” From the Security Industry Authority, under the Home Office.
In Norway, the police will specifically inform each establishment how many “bouncers” they will need to employ, and these bouncers will be licensed – called an “ordensvakt” in Norwegian. If you read Norwegian, here’s the law and here’s a Wikipedia article.
You’ll find similar laws and regulations in German and French and whatnot, but I thought we would mainly stick to the English language pages for now. Keep in mind, also, that “peace officers” – i.e. police – that do extra work as security (“moonlighting”) are required, in many cases by their department to be licensed, no matter what type of security work they’re doing. (Since you like sources, Dave, check out the regulations for NYC, for example. Google it.)
As I’ve said, the US has actually been lagging behind when it comes to licensing bouncers, but we would suggest that you find a club/pub/bar who actually has licensed guards and bouncers, and support those, so that the practice grows.
When it comes to the use of force and the rights of the bouncer, you’re both right and wrong. Again, you should probably read the article and the other answers again. As we’ve already said, a bouncer has, in most cases, “owner’s rights”. That means (and we’ve also said this before) that the bouncer has the same rights in that club as you do in your own home, or on your property. You decide who stays and who goes on your property, right? And you can kick’em out if they won’t leave, right? Right. So there you have it. Take a little breather and think it through before you read on, if you want.
When it comes to using force, that mostly doesn’t happen. However, if someone won’t leave, someone has a big mouth that just won’t stop spewing bile (there are such things as verbal assault, you know), or takes a swing at the bouncer because he/she is too drunk to see the disadvantage in doing so, then the bouncer may use the force necessary to protect him/herself and the other patrons – i.e. keep control of the situation. If you’re flailing your arms, throwing punches and kicks, spitting, biting, cussing and whatnot else, what do you expect will happen?
It’s a myth that people can’t touch you, it’s a myth that every bit of physical contact constitutes an assault, and this is espeially true if you started the whole thing by being DiP, or just a dimwit.
the fact that you get so personal in all your responses says a lot about you as well… mainly that you are just making things up as you go along. The entire post is full of contradictions. Are bouncers licensed or is it a murky area. Regarding use of force, I am both right and wrong. the link to the bureau of us labor statistics has exactly one sentence regarding nightclubs, and nothing about licensing bouncers. I was unfairly ejected from a club a few weeks ago, then subsequently beat up outside when the bouncers attacked me. i thought the club is reputable, but the staff is completely unprofessional. before you say that i probably deserved it, know that the police came and the only witnesses they interviewed were the bouncers. later when I urged the police to view the video footage inside and out, the club responded by saying that the video is only saved for 24 hours before it is deleted. How convenient. So if a bartender is stealing on a friday night, the video overlooking the bar is gone on monday when the management comes in…. please. its a slimy and shady industry that desperately needs regulation. I am on a mission to get all bouncers in california trained and certified, especially in handling tense situations without the use of force.
Well, Dave, the fact that you get so personal in all your responses says a lot about you too – and in the latest comment, you just confirm it all. One would think that the links provided in the last reply was a little hint as to the fact that we’re not just making things up – you can read the rules, regulations and legislation for yourself.
Why don’t you go back to the Labor Statistics page as well, and read more than half the page… anyway.
In regards to California, you should look into the PSE/PSO rules. Check it out here. California is well known for being strict when it comes to licensing of security personell – however, bouncers are for some reason not always required to have one of these licenses. It’s pretty appallng, actually, considering the strict regulations imposed on the rest of the security industry in that state.
Data retention regulations vary widely as well, and while 24 hours for keeping video seems strange for a night club (it might very well be that this was a lie on their part, or they have varying times for each camera/section – i.e. they might be keeping the tape of the register for a week, but the door for a day) it’s not unheard of. Check up on your local regulations for this – usually, they specify a max time, not a min time, unfortunately. Most businesses want to maximize this time, however, for obvious reasons.
Your mission is absolutely something worth following through, and we wouldn’t mind getting some updates either, when you make progress. Making sure that security personell is licensed, and that they have both training, responsibility and can be facing unemployment or reprimand when they cross lines is a good thing, no matter how one would twist and turn it. Go for it.
As to the contradictions… you can see for yourself that licensing of bouncers is a murky area, especially in the US, where states will regulate this themselves. A federal law requiring licensing would be the best way to go, since that would cover all the states, but that’s unlikely to happen, what with the way the security industry has been regulated so far (each state takes care of its own legislation). In many other countries (as you can see from the links) there are laws in place that govern the whole country, and that means that in those places, it’s not a murky area. They’re all licensed, simple as that.
Use of force. Well, you’re not all wrong. Or all right. So what are we supposed to tell you? You have to understand that using force against you isn’t some kind of taboo. It’s not illegal, and in many cases it’s highly legal – when done in the right way, and to the right extent. Very few things in this life are either black or white, Dave.
“Unfairly ejected” is a vague claim, Dave. It sort of smacks like you’re sore about having to leave, maybe not realizing that you actually did something that was unacceptable, wouldn’t comply with the bouncers and got a bit feisty. We don’t know what happened and won’t speculate any further, but that’s what it “sounds” like.
If they really did attack you after “ejecting” you, then that’s a different matter entirely – that’s unacceptable on all levels, no matter what. There’s no question about it, and of course you should pursue the options you have for dealing with that.
As stated above, please go ahead with your mission, if you feel that calling – it’s definitely worth it. Also, please let us know how it goes, too – that would be very interesting.